Westgarthtown Settlement Thomastown, Victoria, Australia
By 80degrees on 26-Dec-10. Waypoint GC2JB02

Really enjoyed wandering around this place the gardens are beautiful as are the buildings. An oasis in the city. I really hope this place keeps getting used. The cemetery was also lovely my two loves cemeteries and historic buildings! Once again not a fan of the final location but it is an old cache, nice to see its still in play Thank you80degrees for showcasing this lovely area and contributing to this great game for myself and others to enjoy. Happy trails!

It had been a long day and it took some will power to tackle this one. A multi can always muck me up.This nearly did as stage three was a challenge until I looked closer.I did enjoy the challenges here at this old town as well as the info on the cache page.Definitely worth a visit and with accurate co-ords a nice quick find.A FP donated for the fun at the end of the day. Home to fish and chips from the shop - not home cooked for once.

I give up. Thanks for the stroll and the history but no luck for me today. A geochecker would be great especially when a couple of the questions are rather difficult. I think I was in the right area but after 30 minutes hunting with no luck and no way of knowing if I was in fact in the right area it was time to walk away with the blue face

Had been to this location before hit failed with my coordinates. Back today to avenge my last trip and find the cache. The goannas had me stumped but a bit of playing around with the possible numbers and a nudge from the CO led me to GZ eventually. A grand old area that was once called Germantown before it was Thomastown I believe. TFTC 80degrees

Went caching out the in the northern 'burbs this morning trying to beat the extreme heat forecast later on this afternoon. Walked around the way points, gathered the information and calculated the final. After getting a million prickles in my socks I found the very well hidden cache. Log was mouldy but still signable. Thanks for bringing me to this bit of local history.PS All the goannas are still there.

I found this cache today on my Mega Walk #15 - a 36,600 step walk from Lalor, through Thomastown and on to Fawkner. I started the multi here as as I knew that the final had to be somewhere on the other side of the park due to the 160m rule. No goannas but I worked out the final anyway. I was surprised to see that these two caches were 14 years old. Thanks from D B-A

Nice history in this area, thankfully we had a quick find here.Thanks 80degrees for the cache.

Nice walk around the grounds and soon had cache in hand. Its a bit mouldy though. Tftc

omegaman1971Support Your local Villain Iive - Laugh - Lurk Caches Found: 12634First To Find Number: 114Sidetracked Cache Finds: 101Out and about in the area for some caching fun and to meet my buddy.Loved this location and history!This is one of the caches we found today, Cheers for the cache.

Also couldnt find goannas but guessed at this, plus adjusted fence post counting down and the cache was soon in hand.Bagged it up to try to allow it to dry out. TFTC and adventure.

That was a nice adventure. Didn’t find the goannas but decoded the possible location. Thanks for the excuse to go for a stroll in the winter sunshine.

I wanted a Multi today for a long-term challenge that I am working on... but ultimately, I wasn't successful. Oh well, another day perhaps.

Couldn't find it. checked so many places sadly dnf

Out caching with xambo4u after attending a gardening event in Coburg.
We returned after our previous DNF. A quick find today. I loved the old farmhouse, and especially the elusive goannas. A beautiful multi, thanks 80degrees.

Out and about with echidna44 after doing CITO not that far away. This would be a third attempt on this one and now knowing that it is here we thought it was worth another go. Nice easy find today.Log book very wet as I think previous people have not planted it properly up. Thanks for the excellent little multi 80 degrees

Very happy to have finally ticked this one off the list!
Puzzle had us stumped in our first visit, but a play around with the coords had us right on the money this visit.
Log completely covered in black mould so maintenance definitely needed soon
TFTC

I'd DNF'd here back in 2019, probably because it wasn't here at that time. Today it was a quick find at the calculated cordinates. I always like local history, and this was put together well. Thanks 80degrees for bringing me back here.

Finally found this cache after a very long while as a sad blue face in my map. I don't know how it was missed previously as it turned out to be an easy find and where Grub62 and I had calculated it should be. The cache itself was upside down and therefore had a bit of water in it. The logbook was very wet too .I tried to dry it out but had limited time. TFTC.

Didn’t figure our the goannas, but found and logged the cache anyway.

A nice history lesson. didnt even know this sort of thing existed in the area until now
The Goannas threw me a bit so I brute forced that one and came up with a likely GZ

TFTC 80degrees

Today was my second time here. I had the correct coordinates last time but needed to expand my search. I was able to locate the container about 16 m from my calculated GZ. Those attic windows and those goannas had me fooled for a little while.

Thank you 80degrees for placing and maintaining Westgarthtown Settlement for us to find today.

Find # 1259.

Passing through this area on the way to an appointment this afternoon, I stopped to find this multi. I too was stumped at WP3 but also gave spiffy a hi 5 when the penny dropped. Thanks for placing the cache 80degrees.

Out with Spiffy- and my geokid for some random caching.

Great area and exploring. WP3 and the prime number of goannas was elusive. But cache found in good condition. High 5 to Spiffy for his calculated guess on the goanna.

Thanks to 80degrees for the fun and the adventure.

Found at 11:21 am.
Out with Fleabag- and his smallest geokid today so picked the nearby adventure lab with plenty of kids parks to keep the kid interested. We only spent a few hours and then headed back home.
This was a cool tour and we even got some explanations of stuff from the guy running the nearby settlement.
We couldn't find any goannas at all anywhere with WP3 non existant so we just ignored that number and used the only one that worked anyway.
A short search once at GZ soon had the cache in hand.
Thanks 80degrees for the cache, the adventure, the hunt and the fun.

My gosh this has been a long time in coming. I remember having looked for the cache twice so I was glad to see the cache had recently been replaced.
Cache found after a PAF to determine which side I ought to be on.

After celebrating my nieces 5th Birthday nearby I stopped in in the way home to complete this multi which had been disabled in previous visits. I wandered around the park and gathered the answers, although the goannas remained elusive. I managed to narrow GZ to two options and a nudge for a PAF got me over the line. My GPS suggested the cache was a few metres away from where I found it tucked away securely.

Thanks 80degrees for adding this cache to the worldwide collection for us all to find.

----------------------------------------------------------
Big things are continuing to happen! *Are you joining the fun again in 2022?*
[**THE**](https://www.geocaching.com/geocache/GC8EW40)
[**WHITTLESEA**](https://www.geocaching.com/geocache/GC8EW40)
[**EVENT 2022**](https://www.geocaching.com/geocache/GC8EW40)
19th / 20th November 2022 – GC8EW40 – Whittlesea – Victoria

Date: April 23, 2022
Find #12694

After parkrun this morning, I had a look at the map for a nearby multi. After stumbling at the finish for a different cemetery multi, I headed for this one. After a nice stroll around the park, I was soon at gz and before too long had the well hidden container in hand.

Massive thanks go to 80degrees for placing this one.

Big things are continuing to happen! *Are you joining the fun again in 2022?*
[**THE**](http://www.geocaching.com/geocache/GC8EW40)
[**WHITTLESEA**](http://www.geocaching.com/geocache/GC8EW40)
[**EVENT 2022**](http://www.geocaching.com/geocache/GC8EW40)
*19th / 20th November 2022 – GC8EW40 – Whittlesea – Victoria*

We were glad to be able and collect this one! We remember solving the multi and being so happy it didn't take more than one trip only to find d the cache missing. Saw it had been replaced recently so decided to have a look and we got it!

Today we finally were able to visit and replace this one. Apologies to those who looked recently. All good now

Out in this area with BoabTree, we searched for this one all to no avail, which was a surprise as BoabTree had found it previously.

Have a theory on this one but will have to come back during the day

The goannas had us stumped for a minute, however it didnt take us too long to spot and count them. We soon had the co-ords in hand but unfortunately when we got to GZ we searched high and low in and out and sadly this one eluded us!

Now we are allowed to go out for any reason Geocaching is now allowed so enabling our caches

Due to the covid lockdown in Melbourne we are disabling all affected caches. If anyone logs a find during this period logs will be deleted

This was my second go at this one and finally picked up all the answers. It to a second round effort to find those goannas. Having confirmed co ords a second attempt to make the find. Bruised and defeated a DNF. Love discovering these historical sites 80 degrees

Goannas! I got to the cemetery without cottoning on to that clue, but some log reading gave me a clue, and a revisit of the church gave me a GZ that matched other logs. I found some spots that a cache could be hidden, maybe even should be hidden, but not one with a cache. I'll return - there are other unfounds nearby. Thanks 80degrees

Got all clues, got the new coordinates, but could not locate cache.
Looks like I shall have to return.

4 months since the last find. This cache is still doing great. The goannas threw me as they did with a few people. But i decided sit down on the benches at the church it all came to me. Hah. Thanks for the cache!

Seriously, I was caching around Thomastown today and read this multi. I recognised the spiel. I know I crunched the numbers and found this cache when I was around this area previously. I did it on the same day as I did the Westgarthtown Cemetery but must have forgotten to log it. I distinctly remember GZ being very close to some swarming bees. Anyway I am logging this cache now.

This one ticked a few boxes today. A multi for our multi month challenge, regular size, picked up TB and some unloved
The goannas threw us at first. We realised when we went back to the church.
What an interesting area. Love caches that take you to places like this. @BFMC you would like it.
TFTC 80degrees a FP from us.

Did not find as there is a bee nest at point 1 arghhh

TFTC

Counted windows counted windows again m, counted fence post Le realised they were the wrong ones. Took a seat found some kids. Found 0 goannas worked out the grave site found the goannas ran back to the church found more goannas entered coordinates. Took us to a wrong destination went back to the goannas sat down and recalculated. Decided to take a chance checked a nice sitting down stump area just widened the search and came across the cache. Not sure if our numbers were correct as showing g 20 meters off our waypoints thank you for bringing us out here lovely little heritage area. Grabbed a traditional on the way back u are a part of the space travel

This cache was both challenging and interesting. I had briefly read the description before but had it in the to do list of later ones. After clearing up the loose end of Westgarthtown cemetery, I thought I would give it a shot as it was quiet day. Most of the instructions were straight forward but the goanna part had me stumped and I got some clarification from other cachers. After adjusting my coordinates and a bit of searching around ground zero I found it and signed off. Nice challenging way to spend an hour or two. TFTC.

Find#339 @ 1646hrs

After a very long search. Finally found cache 20m off cords... Took the trackable

Took a long time 20m off the gps track we were given. Thanks for the cache

At long last I came back to this one. I haven't been able to manually down load co-ordinates to my gps, so I worked out the clues and downloaded them on google maps which showed me at long last the way to go and find the last cache in this hide, thank you 80degrees your caches are great. Took nothing but left a trinket and a trackable geocoin which came from Germany which is fitting.
Greytiger

Not sure where it is, bees were swarming all around the tree, so didn’t want to get to close to the hole where they were swarming

My first Multi-Cache. While there I looked at all the old graves. There is a great book written by Robert Wuchatsch, ‘Westgarthtown’ - The German settlement at Thomastown. One of my late wife’s ancestors Herman Paulke settled in Epping during the 1859s. This is a great place to take the kids to see what houses looked like in a bygone era.

Had found the other of these quite some time ago but didn't have the time needed to locate this one. Driving past today, we were pleased to be able to complete it at last. Love this little area of history in the middle of suburbia. Thanks for bringing us here and thanks for the cache.

Gee, I hadn't the foggiest idea that cool olde stuff like this had been preserved admidst the urban sprawl. These rock walls and stuff are, like, totally hep. And who doesn't like cemeteries that are almost as old as Melbourne itself? (Fools, I'd wager.)

I found the necessary details here without too much trouble, except this goanna business. My first thought was that there were almost certainly zero goannas: they're very uncommon in southern Victoria. Then I just plucked another digit out of thin air and felt sure the resultant coordinates, when mapped, *had* to be correct anyway, regardless of my incomplete comprehension. Sometimes you just know. Unfortunately dozens of children were sitting right at GZ at that time, so I fetched the cache some 8 hours later on my stroll back to Lalor Station. Hella cool. Thanks 80degrees!

Great little multi. Unfortunately freezing cold day and I forgot my jacket brrrr. Tftc.

What an interesting bit of history tucked in suburbia. It is amazing how these old settlements have been looked after. If there wasn't a way to see the houses surrounding this place, it would look like you travelled back in time. Thanks for highlighting and bringing us to this place. Thanks.

Found by Team Justice #1800 CDWAF #310

So I had 4 GeoKids with me today and they all wanted to be a part of this Multi which resulted in needing to check and re-check our coords. Third time lucky but we didn't need to come back another day thankgoodness.
Once again the GeoKids made the find and we had it signed and returned.
Thanks for bringing us to this beautiful patch of land and history.
TFTC

After a busy morning doing the caches along the M80 trail between Lalor and Greensborough with Posums and my geosidekick, we were making our way home the long way to take in a few more caches.

Wandering around this lovely area, I navigated to the waypoints and Posums worked on the numbers. The goanna clue had us a bit stumped, but just as we were wondering what that clue could possibly mean, the geosidekick realised she had been within 50cm of one while Posums and I hunted around for them. Doh!

The rest of the numbers were found relatively quickly, and the find made. Thanks for bringing us here 80degrees, to a very interesting little slice of history hidden away in suburbia. Very interesting to learn that the church is still used!

Out and about with chof_hoe and morty picking up a few caches in the area
Walked around the farmhouse, church and cemetery and got a real sense of the history around here
The cemetery was very interesting reading the headstones
We got the required numbers we hoped we needed
Typed them into the GPS and went of to GZ
Only took a few minutes and we soon had the cache in hand
Signed as chof_Pos
Thanks 80degrees for bringing us to Westgarth Town and showing us this piece of local history TFTC

A visit to nearby cemetery had me looking for the needed parts of this cache as well, very nearly disturbed the hive of bees in the hollow peppercorn tree, but stayed clear as it not part of the waypoints, found a seat with the GOANNAs to work out the final Coords, which were spot on much to my happiness, a quick stroll over to final, stamped the log and replaced, sorry for the late logging, as I had misplaced the notebook which is my memory bank

We saved this one for our mini-milestone: Find #4500!
We are familiar with this area and its history as we not only visited it several times over the years, we are also connected with its history on a number of layers: We are migrants from Germany ourselves, though we arrived 140 later than the Wends and Old-Lutherans. One of us has done some work for Robert Wuchatsch, the renowned historian of this community. His family's original home has only recently been sold, up until then it had been lived in by a descendant of the original settlers.
There is a very interesting display in the old Ziebell farm, including Robert's find of the Pribislaw, the ship that brought the settlers from Hamburg!
Thank you for the cache in this well-preserved location.
A word of warning to other cachers: The area now houses a person who is not fortunate enough to live under a more stable roof. We tried to respect the person's privacy and urge people not to come and search by torch light during the night!

My fourth time back, still cannot find it, I'm going to give up on this one.
Greytiger

Again this one has stumped me, I found the cemetery ok, but this one is a puzzle, I'll be back again.
Greytiger

Had to do a few loops of the paddock before realizing what the reference to goannas meant. DOH!
Failed to see them on the first pass, then they seemed so obvious on our final pass.
Anywaze, we finally found the cache after a brief search at GZ.
TFTC

Nice multi, in an historical German place. Thanks 80degrees for bringing me here. TFTC.

TFTC and the great clues that the kids enjoyed solving. My 5 y.o. son was the first to spot the cache when we got to the location.

This has been on my list for several years and yesterday I was in the area after work so decided I should at least give this a go. One of the numbers stumped me for a while, but after looking around I finally worked it out. At the end it took me to a place that seemed like the right area, but the light was fading and I was going out later so had to get home very soon. I used my phone's torch and checked more and more places but finally had to give up. I asked some people who had found it if I was in the right area and they told me I was, so back I came today, with my teenage son. After looking another 5 minutes or so, I opened the app and checked the final coordinates and noticed I was about 5m away from where I should have been!! Ahhhh!! I moved over and found it straight away!!! Phew!! What a mammoth effort that was. So glad I can tick it off now. Thanks 80degrees for a great Cache. This will get a favourite point from me.

One day I will learn that wearing metcons while caching is a terrible idea... Closest cache to my house surprised I haven't gotten around to this earlier tftc and the history... Took nothing left a couple of picture magnets - flowers and a butterfly

Tim Robbibs would have loved the clues but no obsidian to be found. thanks for the incentive.

What a great Multi. Really enjoyed this one in a great place. Great history. TFTC

TFTC. Signed and returned.
Lovely spot, lovely day, and interesting history.
Would have loved to have seen inside the church.

Out with Cathlud for a morning of caching. Some lovely buildings here that I would love to explore at another time when they are open. I enjoyed the walk around the area. Having done the nearby traditional cache we knew what to expect when we go to the final GZ. Cath was over the moon to have made the find (as apparently I was on fire today). Once the log was written putting the puzzle back together to rehide the cache took some effort. Thanks for bringing us here. It's a pity there aren't more caches in this area.

TFTC.

Continuing my few hours caching with jeckleberryandtedd. We decided to visit this settlement that we had heard about but not visited previously. We walked leisurely around the area, enjoying the information provided for us to read. After collecting the required numbers we continued our walk in the direction of GZ. Jeckleberry, graciously, allowed me to get to GZ first and find the cache. After signing the log she stood back and watched while I tried to return the cache to it's hiding spot. Thanks 80degrees for bringing us to this interesting location.

Been here before to find the traditional cache, had some time to kill today so decided to check this out. I just love caches like this that bring you to interesting places where you can see and learn something new.

I went looking for this one while in the area visiting a dentist.
This cache combines two of some of my favorite things, old farms and old cemeteries.
Thanks 80degrees for the cache

Second find for the day. The kids liked this one as they could work out the clue easily. There were a few bees at waypoint 1, the goannas were hard to find but finally found them after "sitting down" and thinking about it. The cache was an easy find again it looks more like a piggy bank. A very enjoyable cache. Thankyou.

4:20 pm #612
In the area today and decided to stop by and do this interesting multi. Thanks for bringing us here and showing us this nice little piece of history, 80degrees. Cheers!

A very interesting place to wander around. Found all the clues with OzHockeyChick & 88andy88, then headed over to find this nicely hidden cache.
TFTC

An awesome little piece of history in the middle of suburbia.......
Thanks for bringing us to this area and the insight to the area.....The cemetery was so interesting......
TFTC

With the missus off at a birthday party with Darcy I thought that I might pop in and see Mr Lalor Brennan. But why not a stop along the way. I had been here previously to find the traditional, and as Mr Lalor Brennan lives only a short walk away I knew the area well. But boy did I pick the wrong day to get this. The wind was sooooo cold, and the dew on the grass went straight threw my shoes to drench my socks. But there was no way I was leaving without my smiley. All good at WP1 and WP2 but then I had to read, and re-read the description a couple of times before it all made sense. Had no problem gathering the rest of the numbers then on to the final. There was a bit of deja vu here and after 5 minutes of searching I made the find. TNLNSL. Thanks for the cache 80degrees.

I was in the area and has some time to kill today.

I have been here before and found the other cache located here and thought a multi is what I needed to fill in the time.

Loved the little walk around but almost came a victim of the bees or wasps that have made the tree near waypoint 1 home. Caution is required here.

When I had all the required clues I was shocked to see I was placed back near that tree again. With nothing in sight that looked like the cache I rechecked and found I had entered a dodger wrong.

Quick correction and a moment later the cache was in hand, log signed and replaced.

Suscoe's 19th find of today as we explored this area of Melbourne.
We have not ventured this way before and so we enjoyed seeing the countryside and the amazing development that has taken place throughout the area.
We enjoyed the wander here after a cuppa.
Gathered the info as we walked and found this an interesting location.
Glad we didn't have to do that as well to secure our resting place.
Thanks to 80degrees for keeping this piece of local history alive.
A favourite point.

Found on the way home from work, cruising around looking for multi's for the Multi Month Challenge.
Great place for a cache, I'm just disappointed that the museum was closed when I was here, maybe another time. But the cache was great, nice little stroll around collecting clues and then another prize at the end.
Thanks for placing this cache 80degrees

PS I've done a few of your caches now 80degrees and I'm starting to worry that you might have a serious rock fetish.

This made for a fun and interesting cache!
Thanks for the cache

One of the clues had me scratching my head for a while until i spotted something and was able to connect the dots, so to speak. I didnt get tge right answer as my first location had me looking at an olx tree that had a wasp net in it.
Finally got the right cordinates and located the cache,
TFTC!!!!

While the geo family were busy looking around the nearby cemetery I headed around the way points and came up with the final gz. I had to be a little bit stealthy at the church was just finishing up but otherwise every thing went ok. Managed a quick find with the correct co-ord's and after signing the log headed back to the cemetery only to find the dear geo wife talking with a muggle who had not long left the church service and was visiting her parents grave site with fresh flowers. After some chatting and mentioning that we were playing a "game" I found out that she was one of the children (tallest) in the photo near the church and she filled us in on some history of the grounds, church and area. She told us that she will be buried here beside her parents and that her father had to dig his own grave in his own time (shovel and dynamite) while he was younger, this particular elderly lady had already had hers prepared so she needn't worry about going through the same trouble. The things you find out while geocaching is just so facinating sometimes, thanks again 80degrees for the cache and history of the area. Will give it a fave.

After bananas found these two , I thought I would drop in and have another look tonight, found the cache without spotting the goannas, but zero goannas didn't work so another number was used, and log was signed, thanks for the history , thanks for the walk, thanks for the cache

Finding this one was like acting out the final scenes of Shawshank Redemption and the bananas were imitating Morgan Freeman. B2 was the best chasing each of those goannas until all were captured. But I think goannas like bananas.
This is a lovely area and surprising in what was considered just another suburb.
And as we drove away another fine example of this area was discovered.
The hide although it has not been found since the start of the year is exactly where it should be and in excellent condition. Gave the surprised bananas more unloved points.
Thanks 80degrees.

Having visited here before to record a DNF on the nearby trad, I thought I would try for this and along the way retry the trad, no luck on either. Couldn't spot goannas at all, but had all the other numbers, so a guess for the missing number put me at a similar hide. Could not spot it at all, 0/2 for here, will have to watch and see if anyone else finds or the CO can confirm cache(s) are still there

Drew a blank on this one. Got all the stages of the multi and even counted all the goannas correctly. Headed off to GZ and obviously the geo-instinct wasn't switched on. Doesn't mean it's not there, only that my brain wasn't working. I'll head back there once there has been another find. Thanks 80degrees.

Solid church, especially with the additional security. Always enjoy poking about cemeteries - an unusual tree formation near some of the goannas - but approaching the calculated place elicited another little eye-roll... Again found without moving anything though extraction was a different matter. Still, a good walk around an interesting place. Thanks.

An interesting little multi to end my month of caching every day in August. Loved the history, the old cemetery and the buildings. Thanks for the education and the stroll on a beautiful day.

Tftc

After finding the nearby trad, had a go at this multi. Took the walk around visiting all the waypoints, and even found the goannas! The GZ I calculated looked pretty good and when I got there it was a feeling of deja vu but I found this one a bit quicker than the trad! Thanks to 80 degrees for an interesting tour around this area.

I had the place to myself, probably a sensible idea by everyone else, as it was mid-morning and turning into a sunny scorching day. I never found the gecko's, but with some experience with multi's I could tell my missing animal count could be worked around. After a 3 or so minute search, I uncovered the hide, I was happy to get out of the sun after that. If only for a moment until out of the car at the next cache.

Stunning area, I'll have to come back during the day to have another look. TFTC!

This one was (almost literally) a nightmare. First, I erroneously wrote down the wrong coordinates to the first waypoint, then missed out a vital part of the question to obtain number A. Sanguine and I ended up walking two, three blocks away to find the cache, performing some trial and error, then using some fancy footwork to double- and triple-check our coordinates. When we finally hit on the right spot, however, the cache came relatively easily (albeit after five minutes of searching a few possible candidates). It was 1am and we were both absolutely knackered by that point.

It is a bit saddening to see that part of the final waypoint has been destroyed, though I'm not quite sure who (or what) by. Thankfully, though, the cache is intact and in good nick, and so is its little hideyhole, so it seems that this one will continue to be safe for a while. Echoing the words of nirgal_au: please don't break apart the cache site more than you have to.

Apart from all that, it was a very interesting journey to discover the clues. TFTC - loved the goannas!

It was a hot afternoon to be geocaching in Lalor but we found the cache after doing a second count on the goannnas. Thanks 80degrees for a good cache

took a while to find the goannas, didnt particually know what we were looking for, after that, pretty easy find

I really enjoyed this location and the history on display here, it is a great spot for a cache but I was dismayed at the hiding location. Thanks for bringing me here, the multi was worked out with no dramas and the coords were spot on.

This entry was edited by Two_Drews on Sunday, 10 February 2013 at 02:03:04 UTC.

If you dont like any thing about a cache you can just walk away - we are not forcing you to do it

TFTC ,, GROWN UP IN THE AREA BUT NEVER APPRECIATED IT . LIKE I DO NOW ( AGE MUST HAVE SOMETHING TO DO WITH IT )