Heavy Metal Locationless, Locationless, Locationless
By Perfect Tommy on 02-May-02. Waypoint GC538C

The submarin in Nakskov, Denmark

History
The U-359 was built in 1953, was in active service until 1989 and took part in the Cuban missile crisis. The U-359 is of the same type as the submarines whic were detected in the southern swedish archipelago.

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Gade - Frederiksberg, Denmark

Since there were two aircraft carriers at Newport, RI an I took photos around the same time as other log, I have finally decided to post my entry from last year of the USS Saratoga CV-60 and Forrestal CV-59. The USS Saratoga Museum Foundation continues its work to acquire the aircraft carrier and move the Saratoga for its last voyage to cross Narragansett Bay to a permanent museum location at Quonset Point/Davisville RI. for more info refer to http://www.saratogamuseum.org/index2.html

Philadelphia Naval Shipyard located in South Philadelphia Pennsylvania. Take Broad Street South until you can go no further. The sign at the front of the yard was the only picture I could take before I was surrounded by a jeep full of naval police. They questioned me about my intentions. I explained to them what I was doinfg and what Geo Caching was. I was told that due to 911 security was tight an d picture taking of a naval facility(even one that was closed) was a security risk. I spoke to this gentlemen about how as a cub scout we would sleep on the ships ovenight and get to actually perform tasks with the sailors. Those were fun days. I hope we get credit for this cache even though our pictures were not aloud. We could have snuck around and taken a few but I did not want to cause trouble.
I have placed information about the navy yeard below. Enjoy.

The Philadelphia Naval Shipyard closed on September 30, 1995

Philadelphia NSY is on League Island in the Delaware River in Philadelphia. The original naval yard was established in 1801. The yard underwent numerous upgrades, primarily in the early part of the 20th century. In 1917, the Naval Aircraft Factory was established on the island. After World War I, the factory focused on the development and manufacture of experimental aircraft and aircraft accessories. During World War II, the shipyard constructed 53 ships and repaired 574. The workforce was greatly reduced after World War II, from 40,000 to 12,000. The Naval Aircraft Factory was redesignated the Naval Air Material Center in 1943, and became the Naval Air Engineering Center in 1963. In 1974, the Naval Air Engineering Center was relocated to Lakehurst, NJ. The last ship completely built at the yard was finished in 1970. In 1987, fleet carriers underwent service life extension at the yard.

The Navy Intermediate Ship Maintenance Facility (NIMSF) continued to store decommissioned and mothballed ships after the shipyard closed in the mid-1990s. In storage at the shipyard as of late 1995 were two battleships, one heavy cruiser, two aircraft carriers, two amphibious assault ships, two AEs, two AOs, two AORs, one AFS, four CGs, nine DDGs and seven FFs plus numerous small auxiliaries. These included the amphibious assault ships GUADALCANAL (LPH-7) and IWO JIMA (LPH-2); aircraft carriers SARATOGA (CV-60) and FORESTALL (CV-59); and the battleships IOWA (BB-61) and WISCONSIN (BB-64).

Philadelphia Naval Shipyard was the first Naval Shipyard in the Nation. In 1799 Congress authorized $522,678 in funds for the purchase of land to establish the Philadelphia Naval Shipyard. The shipyard was originally located in the Southwark region of Philadelphia. However, with growth of the city, the shipyard was relocated to its present site.

For many years, the workload at the shipyard consisted primarily of new construction and conversions of ships. For example, during World War II the battleship WISCONSIN, the aircraft carrier ANTIETAM, and the cruisers CHICAGO and LOS ANGELES were launched in a period of seven months. However, during the late 1960s at the direction of Defense Secretary McNamara the Navy gradually phased out of the new construction business, turning this work over to the private sector. The last ship built at the Philadelphia Naval Shipyard was the command ship USS BLUE RIDGE in 1970.



[This entry was edited by themcguzeks on Tuesday, December 27, 2005 at 8:59:48 AM.]

2 for the price of one. Decommed Aircraft carriers in Newport RI.

Thanks,
[D]22

Effective immediately, logs that use ships that are part of the Suisun Bay Reserve Fleet, in Benicia, California, will no longer be accepted as legitimate finds and will be deleted. All previously posted logs that use such ships are grandfathered in.

During the 1980's the U.S. Navy came to realize that keeping in service its last remaining World War II Essex Class aircraft carrier was becoming increasingly expensive and that the USS Lexington would have to be replaced by a more modern ship. In August 1990, the Secretary of the Navy announced that the USS Forrestal would replace the USS Lexington as the Navy's training carrier.

On 29 January 1992, Lexington arrived at Naval Station Ingleside and became a permanent Texas resident. On 8 June 1992, the United States Navy officially signed over Lexington to city officials and on 17 June she was towed to her final berth on Corpus Christi Beach. The USS Lexington was opened to the public in October 1992, and on 14 November was dedicated in a formal ceremony attended by representatives of the City, State and Federal governments, as well as former crew members and members of numerous veterans organizations.

From the very first day of operation as a naval aviation museum, the USS Lexington has remained totally self-sufficient, never having received funds from local, state or federal government agencies. The Museum has relied solely on revenues generated from grants, donations, admissions, ship's store sales, special events, and the youth overnight program. These revenues have covered all expenses not only to operate and maintain the ship but also to fund all capital improvements as well.


[This entry was edited by Jarihend on Friday, December 16, 2005 at 9:18:09 AM.]

http://www.juliett484.org/juliett/index.html

The Juliett 484 Submarine: K-77

The K-77 was decommissioned sometime between 1991 and 1994.

Intermedia Film Equities Ltd. chartered K-77 for $200,000 to shoot the action drama K-19: The Widowmaker, starring Harrison Ford and Liam Neeson.

In 2002, the K-77 was purchased by the USS Saratoga Museum Foundation and towed from Halifax, Nova Scotia to Collier Point Park in Providence, Rhode Island. The Russian Submarine Museum was formally opened to the public in August 2002. Today, the K-77 offers public tours and a comprehensive educational program in accordance with New Standards and attuned to the advancement requirements of both Girl and Boy Scout programs.

HCMS Bras D'or

Weight = 475000 pounds 240 tons
Lenght = 150’ 9’
Max speed = 60 knots
Autonomy = 14 days

Post there since 1982
I think it never really served or only a few time probably because it's... bizare!

The concept is that the boat is kinda flying over the water so it is not detected by the submarine!

Found in Islet-sur-Mer, Québec, Canada

the USS HORNE (DLG/CG-30), on susian bay is part of the mothball fleet, it is scheduled to be scrapped, I found some interesting links on the web: http://www.navsource.org/archives/04/040130.htm

http://www.usshorne.net/horne/photo_suisun_bay.htm

http://www.usshorne.net/history.htm

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/chronicle/archive/1997/09/15/MN39732.DTL

On August 9, 2004, the Gyrodyne Foundation coordinated and directed a strip trip to the Suisun BayReserve Fleet, Benicia, Ca., for the benefit of Battleship Cove and chiefly, the DASH Destroyer, USS JOSEPH P. KENNEDY JR. (DD-850). On this mission, we removed approximately 3000 lbs worth of ship assets from the former U.S. Navy Cruiser HORNE. These assets ranged from sound powered phones to speakers to brass parts missing on the KENNEDY. Duration of this mission was 5 days. All assets were moved to the GHHF facility using our own trailer to Reno for packing and palletizing. Many thanks to the U.S. Navy in authorizing this removal of assets for the restoration of the KENNEDY.

http://www.gyrodynehelicopters.com/ghhf_projects.htm

thanks for the cache, and making me do my homework!



[This entry was edited by cooperphoto on Wednesday, December 14, 2005 at 10:15:09 PM.]

The Battleship North Carolina was commissioned in 1941. The first of ten fast battleships built by the United States which saw service in World War II, North Carolina set a standard for new shipbuilding technology that combined high speed with powerful armament. Her superior performance during the Battle of the Eastern Solomons in August 1942 established the primary role of the fast battleship as a protector of the aircraft carrier. Her resiliency to battle damage was proven just a month later in the same area when North Carolina sustained a hit from a Japanese torpedo. Despite an 18 by 32 foot hole in her side, and following a short period to counterflood, she resumed a speed of 25 knots to regain position to protect her assigned aircraft carrier. North Carolina is the most decorated U.S. battleship of World War II with 15 battle stars, having participated in every major naval offensive in the Pacific from Guadalcanal to Tokyo Bay. The North Carolina was decomissioned in 1947 and was later moved to its present home in Wilmington, NC.

This is the Technical Museum of U995, a class VIIC/41 attack submarine of the german Reichsmarine in WWII.

Other side of the street is the "Marineehrenmal Laboe" with museum, and two klicks south is the "U-Boot-Ehrenmal Möltenört".

Further information: http://www.deutscher-marinebund.de/u995

schmittinger



[This entry was edited by schmittinger on Sunday, November 27, 2005 at 5:01:58 PM.]

Anticipating the last minute rush to log locationless caches before they expire, I will delete "Found It" logs that do not comply with the cache requirements. Previously I would send out an email as a courtesy to allow the logger to cure but that has become an unwelcome chore so henceforth I will just delete the non-complying log without explanation. Please note that this cache may be archived prior to December 31, 2005 at management's discretion.


[This entry was edited by Perfect Tommy on Thursday, November 17, 2005 at 6:19:37 PM.]

This old warship is owned by a club in Völklingen (Germany) called "Marine-Kameradschaft". It is an old mine-finding-ship (Minensuchboot) of the German army, and was in duty until 1986. Now his place is in the Saar river near Völklingen.

This is the USS Wisconsin, stationed in Norfolk, VA at the Nauticus Maritime Museum.

We found it in Wilhelshaven at the Northsea, in Germany.

Greetings from
Neanderwolf und die Meute

the Hr.Ms. De Zevenproviniën

THis is a former Soviet sub, now in the harbor in Amsterdam!

[10/16/05 - Well, we really thought this was a good one - a decommissioned warship on public display, but Perfect Tommy says we can only post it as a note, because it went and got itself torpedoed. So, converting this one to a note.]

Finally, we found one we can claim instead of writing notes! The USS Utah rests in the waters of Pearl Harbor as a memory of the attack on December 7th. It is rarely visited, unlike the USS Arizona. Pleae visit the National Park Service site on the USS Utah at
http://www.pastfoundation.org/Arizona/UtahHistory.htm. It has a great deal of info and many pictures.

Second of the Florida class, USS Utah was laid down on March 6, 1909, at the Camden, New Jersey yard of the New York Shipbuilding Co. Utah was launched on December 23, 1909, but was not placed in commission until 1911. Her statistics were impressive for that time -- 21,825 tons, drawing 28 feet, with a top speed of 20 knots. The crew consisted of 60 officers and 941 men. Fire power was measured by five gun turrets, armed with two 12-inch guns. Supplementing the main armament were 16 5-inch, 51-caliber guns and two 21-inch submerged torpedo tubes. Armor 12 inches thick surrounded the vital areas of the vessel. Utah was assigned to the Atlantic Fleet in March 1912. In 1914 Utah played an important role in the American landings at Veracruz, Mexico. In an action on April 21, 1914, seven members of Utah's crew distinguished themselves and received Medals of Honor.

Until the outbreak of World War I, Utah continued with fleet battle practices and maneuvers in the Atlantic and Caribbean. On September 10, 1918, it became the flagship of Rear Admiral Thomas S. Rodgers, commander of Battleship Division Six, and performed convoy duties on the approaches to the British Isles. When the war ended that year. Utah was ordered to serve as honor escort for the transport George Washington that was carrying President Woodrow Wilson to the Versailles Peace Conference. For the next 12 years Utah served with the Atlantic Fleet.

In 1934, the ship was saved from demolition when Navy officials decided to remove the armament and convert the vessel to an experimental mobile target ship at the Norfolk Navy yard. Conversion took nearly a year, but Utah became one of the most sophisticated technical marvels of the period. Utah was changed over in August 1935 to an antiaircraft training ship for the Pacific FleetEventually, the Utah returned to the West Coast and eventually went back to Puget Sound Naval Shipyard. Utah entered the docks on May 31, 1941. It set sail for the last time for Hawaii on September 14, 1941. For six weeks it held an advanced antiaircraft firing practice in Hawaiian waters. For the weekend of December 6-7, Utah returned to Pearl Harbor and moored at berth F-11 on the west side of Ford Island.

One of the first vessels attacked by the Japanese was Utah. One torpedo slammed into Utah's port side at 8:01 a.m. as the crew raised the flag on the fantail. Some minutes later a second hit the same area. By 8:05 the ship was listing 40 degrees, and was abandoned. Thirty officers and 431 men survived the loss of the ship. At best estimates, six officers and 52 enlisted men were lost, some trapped aboard ship.

Utah was declared to be temporarily out of service while salvage teams under Captain Wallin tried to determine if it could be salvaged. Work was stopped until 1956, when a new effort to remove Utah was rekindled. However, the Chief of Naval Operations stopped this effort because the vessel was the final resting place of 58 sailors and should not be disturbed. On May 27, 1972 Senator Moss of Utah dedicated the current memorial to those dead.

The ship is still visible near its final berth on Ford Island. Our pictures were taken late at night, so only the outline of the ship is visible against the lights in the background.

[This entry was edited by SoccerFanatics on Saturday, October 29, 2005 at 4:58:11 AM.]

This ship's name is Admiral. This is quite old ship. At the moment it is tourism attraction. There is Admiral cache too about 5 metres from the ship like at thet position as it is on the picture.
Extra information: Admiral is/was a battleship. Ship was built in St. Petersburg (in Russia) at 1955. It was used to military drill in 1960s for only 2 times. Ship wasn't enough good for battling on the sea, so it is on the harbours for a lot of years.

[This entry was edited by geopeitur301 on Monday, October 10, 2005 at 12:27:23 PM.]

The ship on the end is the LPH-11 New Orleans, an Iwo Jima Class Amphibious Assault Ship (Helicopter) that is presently in the mothball fleet at Suisan Bay, California. It is waiting to be donated as a musueum. I used the following links to identify the ship's location, and to match it with the photo. I also looked closely at the USS Vancouver, an amphibuous transport dock that participated in various operations in the Vietnam war.

Suisun Bay Ships: http://navy.memorieshop.com/Ships.html
New Orleans: http://www.navsource.org/archives/10/1111.htm


[This entry was edited by Erickson on Friday, October 07, 2005 at 4:33:54 PM.]

Here are some pictures of a decommissioned warship, the USS Baltimore a Los Angeles-class submarine. This was the sixth US Navy ship to be named for the City of Baltimore. She was decommissioned and scrapped years ago, but we recently came across this pictures and though warship enthusiasts might enjoy seeing them. Also - since she was scrapped, there is no chance of anyone claiming her as a find for this cache. These pictures were taken while sailing near the shipping channel in the middle of Chesapeake Bay off Annapolis, Maryland. The Baltimore was heading for a port visit at her namesake city.

The "Küstenwachboot 19" in Horumersiel, Germany.
TFTC
Keitaro64

This is a PTF 3 being restored in DeLand, Florida USA. It is currently located near the DeLand Airport at the Navy Museum, when completed it will be docked in Sanford, Florida on Lake Monroe/St. Johns River. When completely restored I'll submit another picture.
Thanks
TheDeLandDuo

We stopped by here while we were home visiting family. This was our little hangout on the weekend. It is still a great riverwalk.

The U.S.S. KIDD DD-661

Representative of the Fletcher class destroyers that formed the backbone of U.S. destroyer forces in World War II, USS Kidd is named for Rear Admiral Isaac C. Kidd, who was killed aboard his flagship, USS Arizona, when the Japanese struck Pearl Harbor on December 7, 1941. Kidd saw heavy action in World War II, participating in nearly every important naval campaign in the Pacific, winning eight battle stars. Kidd and her crew fought gallantly during the invasion of the Gilbert and Marshall Islands, the Philippines at Leyte Gulf, and off Okinawa, where she survived a kamikaze attack. In 1951, the destroyer was deployed to Korean waters, where it won another four battle stars for service.

Decommissioned in 1964, Kidd entered the Atlantic Reserve Fleet and was berthed at Philadelphia until 1982, when ownership was transferred to the Louisiana Naval War Memorial Commission. Never modernized, Kidd is the only destroyer to retain its World War II appearance.

She is now on public view as a museum vessel in Baton Rouge.

ahoi
U-Boat U-11/S190 can be visit in Burgstaaken/Fehmarn/Germany!
more interesting pix:
http://www.fehmarn-echo.de/fotoserien/galerie03-uboot/index.html

greetz
e!

HMS PLYMOUTH

The Historic Warships displays at Birkenhead on the Wirral has 3 warships. HMS Plymouth (Frigate), HMS Onyx (Submarine) and U-534 (A German U-Boat). I am logging HMS Plymouth. The co-ordinates are from the location of the first picture, as close as you can get without paying to enter!

Its Technical details are as follow :

Built by Devonport Dockyard, Plymouth 1958

Royal Navy Type 12 ASW Frigates
Whitby and Rothesay Class

This class was the first of a long line of Royal Navy post-war frigates (apart from the destroyer conversions types 15 and 16) and can be considered as the best anti-submarine warfare escorts of their era. The 6 "Whitbys" were in effect the prototypes of every Royal Navy anti-submarine warfare frigate up until the Type 21 and Type 22 two decades later. The "Rothesays" originally differed only in internal layout but were later refitted to Leander Class frigate standard.

Propulsion : Steam Turbine 30,000 shp
2 Shafts
Speed : 29 knots maximum

Displacement
2,800tons Standard

Dimensions
112.7 m x 12.5m x 3.9m

Radars
Type 275 Mk6M GFCS tracker
(Type 903 MRS3 GFCS in modernized Rothesays)
Type 262 MRS 1 GFCS tracker (STAAG FC)
Type 974/978 navigation radar
(type 1006 navigation radar in modernised Rothesays)
Type 293 low angle air/sea search
(Type 994 surface/air search set in modernised Rothesays)
Type 277 Height finding radar
(deleted in modernised Rothesays)

Sonars
Type 174/177 Search sonar
Type 170 Attack sonar
Type 162 bottom profiling sonar

Armament as completed
1 Mk6 twin 4.5"/45 DP gun
1 Mk2 STAAG twin 40mm/60 AA
(later replaced by 1 Mk9 40mm/6O AA)
2 Mk10 limbo ASW mortars 14 21" ASW TT
(on some Whitbys removed after only a short time)

Armament of Rothesay class after modernisation
1 Mk6 twin 4.5"/45 DP gun
1 Mk10 limbo ASW mortar
2 20mm/83 AA
1 GWS 22 quad Seacat system
1 Wasp helicopter

The submarin Nordkaparen at Göteborg Maritima Center. It was built in Malmö 1962 an was in service to 1982. It is now a museum ship next to jagaren Småland, previously logged on this page.
I had bad reception among the ships, error +-52 meters!
N 57 42.539 E 011 57.580

Second of two caches today (other cache being: From this moment).
Found 02/09/05 (2nd September) @ 12:30pm by Paul (Team Stargazer). A virtual cache and a very interesting site ...

HMAS WHYALLA (J153) Bathurst Class Australian Minesweeper (also known as a Corvette).

Launched in Whyalla, South Australia, on the 12th May 1941 & commissioned there on the 8th January 1942.
After finishing service with the Australian navy she was sold in 1947, renamed RIP, and was used as a lights maintenance vessel.
In 1984 the Whyalla City Council bought her for $5,000 and she returned to the city of Whyalla under her own engines. Then in 1987 she was moved to the same slipway where she was launched in 1941 and then placed on permanent display in 1988 on foundations 2km inland in the city of Whyalla.

See the following links for more info ...

http://www.navy.gov.au/spc/history/ships/whyalla1.htm
http://www.hnsa.org/ships/whyalla.htm

Thanks Perfect Tommy [^]

This is the retired PT658. The marvel of it is that it still has its Packard engines that run. Vancouver Washington.

found this navy patrolboat in suthern harbour of Luleå (Sweden).

Built at the Chatham Dockyard in England, the Okanagan was named after a tribe of the Interior BC Salish Nation. Commissioned into the Canadian Navy on 22 June 1968 the boat served in the Atlantic fleet based in Halifax until 14 September 1998. A special paying off ceremony (the term for bringing a ship's naval service to an end) including a celebration of 30 years of service in the navy was held soon after on the 28th September that year. All 4 of class are now resting here at the Naval Dockyard Annex in Dartmouth Nova Scotia. The Okanagan is the second from the right...the first being the HMCS OJIBWA
The Oberon Class Submarines had a Displacement of 1,610 tons surfaced and 2,140 submerged. They measures 295 x 29 x 18 feet. The Boats Armament was comprised of Mk.37 Mod 2 electric homing torpedoes 6x 21" tubes forward, 2x 21" "short" tubes - stern firing- with Mk.37 Mod 0 electric straight running torpedoes.
Top Speed 2 x 3,680 hp V16 diesels, 2 x 3,000 hp electric motors, diesel-electric, 2 shafts, 6000 shp, 12/16 knots
Her Pennant Number is 74 and she was Crewed by 68 of the finest submariners in the world

TNLN

Thanks For The Hunt

Les 4 Frogs


[This entry was edited by Les 4 Frogs on Saturday, August 13, 2005 at 7:15:02 PM.]

[This entry was edited by Les 4 Frogs on Saturday, August 13, 2005 at 7:34:57 PM.]

HMCS NIPIGON.
Le Nipigon est un navire de classe Annapolis de 366' de long et de 42' de large. Il appartenait jusqu'à tout récemment à la marine canadienne. Il a été en service depuis le 10 décembre 1961. Il servait de navire d'escorte anti sous-marins. Il a été décommissionné et acheté au montant de près de 210,000$ CAN par Les récifs artificiels de l'Estuaire du Québec. Il a été sabordé au cours du mois de juillet 2003 pour devenir un récif artificiel à l'intention des plongeurs.

Selon la tradition canadienne de la marine, le nom d'un bateau est donné en empruntant le nom d'un cours d'eau. Nipigon est le nom d'un cours d'eau provenant du lac Nipigon en Ontario.

Pour avoir une photographie du Nipigon il faut donc plonger dans les eaux froides du St-Laurent à la hauteur de Ste-Luce sur mer près de Rimouski, Québec ,Canada.

La photo du navire est une ancienne prise lorsqu'il était en préparation pour le sabordage. Son mât à été démantelé pour qu'il n'entrave pas la circulation maritime.

L'eau du fleuve est extrèmement froide à longueur d'année. La visibilité est souvent médiocre. Le HMCS Nipigon à été sabordé à 2,16 kilomètres de la célèvre épave de L'empress of Ireland.




[This entry was edited by Scubagil on Sunday, July 24, 2005 at 7:50:01 AM.]

[This entry was edited by Scubagil on Monday, August 08, 2005 at 1:52:35 PM.]

Found this Ship in Australien near Brispane.

Karin and I found this submarine in the technical museum of Speyer. It's the U9 a German submarine of the 205 class. It was in service from 1966 to 1993.
With overall-length of 45,73 it is quite small but the German Navy doesn't need large submarines.

This boat is "The gunboat used by the PLA to fight against the warships of the Kuomintang Army in the Toumenshan Naval Battle in 1950", according to the accompanying plaque. The remainder of the plaque is in Chinese, so that is all the history I can provide. It is part of an exhibit at the Chinese People's Revolutionary Military Museum, in Beijing, China.

As the torpedoes are located inside, where GPSr lock is impossible, the above coordinates were taken at the front door of the museum. Thanks for the cache.

The HMAS Otway is an Oberon Class Attack Submarine SSK and now resides at the Town of Holbrook, NSW, Australia. It served in the Royal Australian Navy from 1968-1995. She had been named by Her Royal Highness Princess Marina at Scotts’ Yard, and launched on the 29th. of November in 1966, and commissioned into the Royal Australian Navy on the 24th. of April 1968. Over her 27 years of service, Otway steamed some 415,000 miles.
Statistics:
Displacement (submerged) 2450 tons
Length 88.5 m
Surface speed 12 kts, Submerged 17 kts
Range 9000 nm @ 12kts operational dive depth. 200m
Armament 6 x 21, Bow torpedo tubes, 20 x torpedoes originally Mk 8, 20 and 23 later some boats were able to use Tigerfish torpedo as well as the Sub-Harpoon missile.

Australian Destroyer DDG39, HMAS Hobart. The vessel is currently in a dock at Port Adelaide undergoing demolition work. Eventually #39 will be scuttled as a dive reef in 90m of water.

So see it while you can. At present the demolition is removing excess top structure and clearing the vessel of any nasties that may contaminate the dive site.

Try url for more info.
http://www.hobartreef.com.au/hobartg.html

News Flash:........Since this log was placed Hobart has been sunk. The vessel was scuttled and now rests sitting upright on the sea bed off Yankallila. The sight will soon be opened to the public and hopefully some enterprising cachers can get another log. Albeit at -30m.

[last edit: 12/12/2002 3:55:41 AM PST]