Killen Falls (Ballina) Tintenbar, New South Wales, Australia
By OrionJ on 02-Jun-16. Waypoint GC6K103

Day 6 of my fortnight+ road trip up to Brisbane eand back to Blue Mountains. A leisurely drive up. Avoiding GC power trails. Randomly driving to various spots that take my fancy. After a nap at the car park, walk down there to soak the misty waterfall air. Some swimmers there. Made some observations. Thanks OrionJ for this EC. My 2190th find count.

#7792On a trip north with harveyt2079 staying in Byron for a few nights. Headed south to start the day with a cemetery cache or two and finishing up at Killen falls. Enjoyed a quick dip here after considering the EC questions. Only a few people enjoying the falls this afternoon. Can imagine it could get quite busy on weekends and during holidays. Thanks for bringing us here. Answers submitted.TFTC OrionJ

Up from Sydney for the week. On our way north we stopped here at Killen Falls where we were able to collect the info for this Earthcache after quite a fun rock hike down to the base of the falls. A stunning location. Thanks for sharing this Earthcache OrionJ #2965

Answers sent to CO. It took me a fair while to get to GZ. Short legs and took my time moving over the rocks. It was 29 degrees here and the young ones were enjoying a swim at the falls. Gathered the information and headed back for the Event. Thanks OrionJ for the lovely place you bring me to. All good with this Earthcache.

Northern Rivers time with all these events on I had to come down. Of course I had to one was mine. My son was my copilot. We spent the night sleeping in the Ute. I found over 25. Funny part I have no idea with how many Lab caches I found. OrionJ thank you for placing and maintaining this cache for enjoyment of the caching community.

Peppa, Beardman75 and I have ventured into Northern NSW for a day of caching and events from the hinterland to the beach and everything in between. This area was awesome to visit, I love a waterfall and even better when you can get up close to one! Thanks for bringing us here OrionJFind #6355

With Davinells guiding us and Peppa providing comments from the back seat, we've broken through the border for a day of caching and some events.Great spot. I went for a swim and the water was perfect. Thanks for the cache OrionJ

Davinells, Beardman75 and I are cruising the Northern Rivers in the still Chainsawless Pajero, attending 101 events, possibly chasing a sneaky FTF, and generally causing merriment and joy wherever we goHaving found zero Hemsworths in Byron weve made our way to Killen Falls for the final two events of the dayThis really is a special location the natural beauty on display is remarkable and I really enjoyed our visit, and there was plenty here to keep me occupied Davinells has submitted our answers on behalf of the groupThanks OrionJ Find #11794

I was surprised to see what I did when we got below the falls. Beautiful location.Answers sent.A definite favourite OrionJ, I found Killen Falls (Ballina) today. Thanks for placing and maintaining this cache.

This place was an amazing spot. It wasn't too crowded and would have been the perfect spot for a picnic if I'd have known how brilliant it would be. Definitely a favorite as it ticked all of the boxes. Thanks so much for bringing us to this local gem!

Lovely falls. Not too crowded.Here with kiwisteve2 and olliedogoz. Heading north to places unknown. Answers have been sent. Tftc

Visit in caravan from Victoria. Awesome stuff

Wow the walk down to the bottom of the falls was so worth the slippery uneven scramble. The fall is spectacular after the recent rain. The whole area is so beautiful and so grateful that geocaching has brought us here. Fav point. Thanks for bringing us here

What a beautiful spot this is. We spent at least 2 hours swimming here this afternoon and had a great time. Lots of water over the falls but not so much that you couldnt get right under it (although the stronger section of falls was pretty hard on your head/back)! Photo provided but edited to remove anything too helpful! A definite FP from us. TNLN TFTC

Had a great time today out here today with the family and a few friends. Well worth the visit. Thanks for the cache and cheers from Browngang

Well my trip up to QOGM has officially started and I’m taking the very indirect route up to outback QLD to get there.
It has been a while since I have driven up the Hume to Sydney and some people say that it is a very boring drive but I enjoy it.
So after spending a couple of nights in Lane Cove it was time to hit the M1 and A1 and head north to the last of my target caches The Frying Pan.
After finding the Pan and a little celebration I was then in googles hands to get me to up to my next destination.
Spent the night in Taree so now back on the M1 and A1 to head to Byron Bay for the most Easterly cache and a few LGA’s along the way.
I was heading to another cache but I took a wrong turn and ended up heading towards here.
I walked to the look out first then decided I had to go to the base of the falls as well.
Well worth the short walk done.

Answers have been sent to the CO.

Thanks OrionJ TFTC.

Tftc! Beautiful area!!

EC pic

A morning drive from Lennox Heads for three caches here.
A beautiful waterfall and some unusual EC questions that required me to explore the bottom of the falls.

Thank you for this earth cache
R

Great place for a swim, although a little crowded on Easter Saturday! TFTC

Out with the family in Byron Bay today. Detoured here to Killen Falls on the way back to Iluka. Walked all the way day to the bottom, even being so late in the evening there was still heaps of people here enjoying the water. Bit of a sketchy walk down with all the exposed roots!

Answers send a while back, apologies for the late log on this one.

TFTEC!

What a beautiful place to look at as well as to swim in
TFTC

While spending a couple days in Byron we decided to check out these falls, we weren’t disappointed

Visited this earth cache while driving from Brisbane to Melbourne

A lovely falls on a very warm day which meant there were very many people there!!!!

Answers and photo submitted to owner

Awesome location!!
AdamsFamBam

This weekend, jesswrigley and I travelled south to Byron Bay for a long weekend getaway.
On Saturday, we visited the Bangalow markets, Newrybar, and then walked at Killen Falls. It was then a drive along the coast via Lennox Head, Whites Beach and then checking in at Suffolk Park.
On Sunday, we started the day with a hike in Goonengerry National Park before having a late breakfast in Byron Bay. We perused the town's shops, enjoyed Suffolk Park's beach, and then returned back to Byron Bay for dinner.
Finally on Monday, we visited The Farm in Byron Bay, and then later saw the lighthouse at Cape Byron.

Today, we left early from Brisbane to drive to Bangalow in NSW, noting the additional hour adjustment to be made. After visiting the markets, we had a coffee event with Fergclan, and rounded out our visit to the nearby cemetery. At Newrybar, we walked around the town before having lunch, and then we made a stop at Killen Falls to make the short walk to see a nice display of its waterfall. A drive towards the coast had us detour past Tintenbar and Macadamia Castle, before making a couple of stops in Lennox Head, enjoying the beauty of the headland. We made one last stop at the secret cove of Whites Beach, where baby Warren seemed to enjoy playing in the sand, and the sea caves were fantastic.

We hadn't made too many plans following our Newrybar visit, so when I noticed a couple of geocaches south with a waterfall opportunity, it seemed like a great location to visit, and I also thought with all the recent rain, it would be quite scenic/photogenic indeed. We took the walk down, and I wasn't expecting to do some slight rock hopping as we back-tracked towards the falls, but it didn't seem to be too much of an issue. We were greeted to a really cool waterfall indeed, with quite a few visitors at this location, including a family taking the opportunity to have a swim. We made a couple of observations, and send our EarthCache answers to the CO for verification, receiving a quick/prompt reply. Thanks OrionJ for the EarthCache placement and ongoing maintenance.

We visited here and the weather limited our time here to explore ,as we needed a cache for International Earthcache day, we made a quick visit ,answers have been sent to CO and a favourite point from us.

Found today while on a cache drive around the area, We ended up going to Killen Falls, and then down a bit further to obtain a few more finds, ended up with 9 finds and an amazing walk in between!

Amazing spot under the waterfall here, FP awarded.

TFTC

#5513
We spent the morning traversing the Pearces Creek/Wollongbar area, managing 14 assorted finds with only a couple of DNFs. Our main target was Killen Falls - we love waterfalls, and there are 5 caches right there....
Watching the water gushing over the dam spillway we wondered if we'd get right into the falls, but ventured down anyway, to find the place quite packed with swimmers and sightseers. We managed to walk behind the water flow, which was pretty awesome, got some photos we needed, and headed out.
Thanks for developing this EC, its a beauty. Answers have been sent.....

TFTEC. We were staying in Ballina for 10 days and decided to explore the hinterland area. We were not disappointed. Loved the walk down to the falls. A tad slippery but hanging onto the rails was safe. It was a lovely sunny day when we came here.

I don’t think it is there anymore

The flood almost took it

What a glorious little spot this is! After slip-sliding our way down the hill and stairs (a loosely used term, given the muddy state they are currently in) we made it to the bottom and had the whole place to ourselves... save for a few bush turkeys who were watching us carefully. The recent rain meant the falls were following with ease and we loved exploring the area behind them.
Although I've got lots of photos of the waterfall, to avoid spoiling the fun I'll include a photo from the cool fungi we found, they're everywhere at the moment!
Thanks for a great earth cache highlighting a beautiful location!

FTC.. found the cache, love this waterfall

& I are heading home after a busy weekend in Lismore and thought we’d grab one today on the way home to BrisVegas. Great walk to the base of the falls lots of cascading over the falls. Pity about the trad nearby not being in play

Muggle65 and l loved the beautiful stroll to GZ. Huge amount of water falling at the moment - very impressive. Thank you for bringing us to this gorgeous spot

Beautiful spot. Enjoyed a swim with many others.
Tftc

TFTC. Great spot and great info. Lots of swimmers enjoying the solitude of the falls.

We have finally crossed the Qld border, heading south for Xmas with the family.
On our trip south we chose a few beautiful places to stop.
This was definitely a great place to stop and we enjoyed a swim at GZ.
What a great location to place an earthcache.
It looked like a lot of schoolies had the same idea as us, given the number of cars with red or green P plates.
Lots of people swimming at GZ.
We then walked up to the dam wall, where, after recent rain the water was overflowing very fast.
Answers sent to CO.
Thanks OrionJ
Domsky

A lovely spot to check out. Here with the family on a little holiday. Tftc

A few people in for a swim today. This Native Victorian who has been living in Tasmania for the last 35 years Says that it would be to cold. All ok the waterfall is still and a bit wet TFTC. Answers on way

Its mother’s day and a little family get together on the wife’s side of the family. I had been trying to get them to go for a walk to Killen falls for a while now, but as soon as the son (my brother-in-law) suggests it, it’s all go. A short drive from the house and we were at the parking area ready for a walk. The first cache was a quick little walk up to the dam wall and spillway. I took my youngest with me and she was so happy to find the cache. I was happy she was caching with me, she signed the log and replaced the cache as found.

Then it was down to the observation deck for the next find, another easy find, the hint was good for this one. Again she wanted to sign the log and then I replaced as found, thank you.

Then a short walk down for a swim and answer a few questions for an earth cache. The walk down required some slow travels as the rocks were very slippery today. Then it was time for a swim, it was a little brisk or should I say refreshing.

A great morning out; some fun, some snacks and to top it off some caching along the way.

Thanks to the all the CO’s for placing these caches here, good work.

Making the trip with the family from Tyalgum to Newcastle in a day fitting in a few stops. And doing this EC with Dino and Pebbles.

We thought this would be more of a cacher tips location which we would have largely to ourselves. It could not be further from the truth. There were hunderts and hunderts of people at the waterhole today a constant stream of people walking past each other to get in or out the narrow pass. Quite a grotesque. Oh well, obviously a nice spot and it brok up the drive but not what we expected.


Thank you OrionJ for putting the cache out and maintaining it.

Found together with Fred.

TFTC OrionJ

Found this nice Cache together with Dino and Flintstones. Thank you for putting it out and maintaining it OrionJ.

A great little spot for a Saturday drive on our weekend visit to Ballina. Would love to be here when it’s in full flow. Answers soon to CO . TFTC

Great earthcache!
Be early and spend the falls by yourself.

We are traveling up to north and we've seen few waterfalls on the way and I think that this one has been the best so far. Thanks for bringing us here and the earthcache!

I was winding my way home from work in Ballina today, and had to stop to see the falls I had spotted on my caching map through the week. Although from the viewing platform at the top they were not as impressive, having to climb down for the earthcache certainly gave a new perspective....what an awesome sight. I made my way across the rocks to the cave and took photos. Another beautiful discovery thanks to a cache. Thanks for bringing me here OrionJ, take a Favourite Point for your collection

I found lots of caches on a roadtrip holiday up to Byron Bay. Over the course of the week, I targeted a variety of caches that worked towards different statistic-based goals. Thanks to all the Cache Owners for their contributions to this fantastic recreational activity.

Australian heavy music is a big part of my life. One of my most favourite bands, In Hearts Wake, have filmed a music video at Killen Falls. Naturally, I just had visit the location for myself!

Visiting on a rainy day had its upsides - the water was really flowing through here! After collecting a dozens of photos I decided to go for a swim. I had the place to myself and it was truly a magical experience.

I will remember this location for some time to come. Thanks for bring me here OrionJ! A Favourite Point.

In Hearts Wake - Divine [Official Music Video]:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zUy9ytCkEjk

While staying in the Alstonville area we visited your EC. Collected the information rewuired & sent to the CO. Even being winter time there was a number of people visiting the waterfall.
The track to the lookout was very muddy after the recent rain.
Thanks OrionJ for bring us to this location, I'm sure the local really enjoy it in the summer months.

First earthcache!

I've been away for a few months. Just got back yesterday. To reward myself for unpacking the car and setting up my new room, I came for a wander down under the falls. I never did get around to claiming a find on this earthcache although I've been here a few times before. It was slowly getting dark and almost everyone had left the falls so it was nice and peaceful there.

Thanks for the earthcache.

Thanks for our first earthcache, sent the answers

Today I departed Brisbane on my way south to spend Christmas with some relatives in Vincentia, NSW. I had allowed myself a few days of relaxed travel, which gave me plenty of time to do some caching along the way, including a visit to this cache.

This was the first stop for the trip, stretching the legs after a few hours of driving. Some other cars in the car park indicated I was not to be the only one at the falls today. I passed a mother and daughter also on the way down and another family with young kids heading back up. There was another group of backpackers swimming in the water, which was covered in a layer of greenery and didn’t look at all inviting for a swim. Barely a trickle of water over the falls which was not surprising considering the lack of recent rain.

With a good deal of distance yet to cover today, I could not linger too long, and headed back up the track to the car. TFTC

Nice to see the falls. Thanks for brinig me to that place.
Danke an OrionJ für diesen Cache
***CADS11***

After doing the tourist thing in the Ballina/Lismore area over the long weekend it was time to head home.
We detoured via this area and found this cache along the way.
It was a beaut little spot to visit, unfortunately very dry and not a great deal of water flowing over the falls. We imagined it would look pretty spectacular after a bit of rain.
Thanks for setting up the EC and for bringing us here, it was well worth the visit.
EC answers sent.
TFTC

Enjoyed visiting the area today
Joint log with tmann421

Visited this Earthcache with woolwood9 today.
Really enjoyed the walk to the viewpoint where we located the traditional cache then the short walk to the base of the falls - really didn't expect it to be such a nice place and pleased we visited.
Answers sent - Thanks very much for giving us the reason to come to the Killen Falls!

I don’t normally do Earth Caches but thank you so much for bringing me to this magical spot!
Answers sent.

TFTC! Beautiful spot

There were no people around today. Our only company was a cormorant happily fishing at the base of the falls and a few bush turkeys.

Thanks for bringing us here and making us pay close attention to our surrounds.

(Answers sent to CO and a Favourite point awarded.)

T4TC

Amazing spot! Saw a few fish jump out if the water.

After a very muddy walk to the falls, after the recent rain, it was a great place to swim. TFTC

Very busy at the falls today
Guess Qld school holidays is the reason why
Lovely stroll to the lookout where got the traditional cache then walked down to the falls .
Mick had trouble tackling the rocky part of track but we made it down without any mishaps
Sat for a short while on rocks after gathering info required .
Tftc and bringing us here dont think we would have ever come here if not for caching

1Minniemoo, Nyssaflutterby, some munchkins and I set off on a roadtrip to Ballina for a weekend.
This was our destination cache, one that NF had chosen to be her 6000th find!
And what a lovely place to celebrate!
We looked at the falls from above, spotting some turtles and a huge fish, then headed down the path.
There were a few other visitors but they were all busy swimming and generally showing off their assets.
We discussed the answers for the Ec, (which 1MM has submitted for all of us) and took a lot of photos, NF and the munchkins got a little wet but none of us went swimming today.

Knowing that my 6000th smiley was coming up, I decided that this EC should be the one.
I love Earthcaches and Killen Falls is a beautiful location. A great place, with my munchkins and good friends, to celebrate the milestone.

After enjoying the view from the boardwalk on top, we made our way to the base of the falls.
We discussed the answers as a group and then had fun splashing in the falls and taking a few photos.

Thanks for the Earthcache cache OrionJ

23/2/19 4:04 pm Find #2392
It was Ballina weekend for NyssaFlutterby, Wombles&Co and I, despite Cyclone Oma wanting to put a dampener on things, and this cache was our particular detour cache before getting there.
Arriving at the parking we discovered it was quite busy here today despite the squally weather, parked the cars and headed on down.
Deciding on the answer to one of the questions at the first stop, and taking some photos, we couldn't wait to head down below.
And once there, we were glad we had chosen to come here today, even if we weren't exactly prepared for a swim here ourselves. Concentrating on our answers first, we then took some time to enjoy the location, just maybe not quite as much as those who ventured in for a dip.
And with duties complete, it was a big congratulations in order as this cache marked NyssaFlutterby's 6000th cache find.
Thanks for the cache OrionJ.

What a lovely spot. I hope the many visitors it sees don't damage the spot over time. TFTC

Woo Hoo, Earthcache 100!!!!!This is a truly memorable cache! It is a remarkable place, easy to get to and very pretty. My geo wife has waited years to find a waterfall she could walk behind. I will definitely be coming back. Thanks OrionJ for bringing us to this magical place.

I did bring my bathingsuit, but decided not to go in the water. Still a great place. Xolanda posted answers. Thanks for taking us here.

On a holiday trip “down under” with Xolanda, ZebylonElectry and the kids. Thank you for this great hide and a chance to see this place!

~~~~ Greetings from Sweden!!! ~~~~
~~~~ “Nothing ever becomes real 'til it is experienced.” ~~~~

On our way from Byron Bay to Woolgoolga we revived and refreshed at this spot with a little walk in the bush down to this beautiful waterfall. No problem in thongs and with a 3 and a 6 year old that maneuvered the slippery path. Some people were bading at arrival but since we were in the middle of the road we stayed conveniently dry. The answers to the EC has been sent separately to CO.

Thank you OrionJ for showing us this place!

*For three wonderful weeks my family and I from Sweden: Tedronai, Lilla L & Lilla S and my parents Zebylonelectry travelled the east coast of Australia in a mobile home. From Port Douglas in Queensland to Sydney in New South Wales the road went with an amazing number of beautiful spots and sightseeings in between. The weather was mostly sunny with occasional tropical rain and thunder between 25-42 deg. The ocean warm and welcoming despite crocs and jellyfish. No less than three snakes were spotted in the wild. This was my first time in Australia and can´t wait to get back! Thank you to all cache owners that showed us around!*

Breath taking! Took the whole walk down under the waterfall. We re in heaven

What an awesome spot. Thanks for bringing me to this beautiful place OrionJ. It reminded me of the cliffs in Back Creek Gorge. You can walk under some of those and see the basalt columns above you.

It was great to be able to walk under the little trickle of the fall today and explore the cave.

I can imagine the thunderous roar in the gorge after serious rain and flooding. It is very interesting looking at the water marks high above the falls from the platform further up the track.

Answers sent. A favourite point for this worthy earthcache. [^]

Came here today with JooJoo57 while doing some geocaching in the area. I don't think I've heard of these falls before but we really enjoyed our visit here today. It was a glorious warm to hot sunny winter day and so great to be out in the country discovering places like this. It's great that the local authorities have provided the lookout at the top but the view is not nearly as good as it is from the bottom. So we were so glad today that the Earthcache forced us to make the trek down to discover the beauty of the area at the plunge pool.
Many thanks OrionJ for bringing us here today. It was our last cache of the afternoon and was a highlight. Our answers have been sent and we hope they meet your approval.
Cheers and happy caching!

Visiting today with Aussie Liahona and this is our final stop for the day. Carefully clambered down to the waterhole and was certainly surprised with rock structure surrounding it. We checked what we had to look for, noted our estimates then made our way back up to the platform for a final view before heading home. Thanks OrionJ for bringing us to this lovely spot and broadening our geological knowledge. A FP from me.

Lovely morning at the falls - although way too many muggles to allow access to the traditional caches in the area. I've logged my answers and had them confirmed by the CO so I'll take this as cache #50.

TFTC!

This was a great place to visit, and I enjoyed seeing the power of nature in the falling water. It was pretty cool down here today, so a swim wasn't really on the cards.
Answers sent to the CO. TFTC

Wonderful spot for a swim with the geodaughters.

I enjoyed going for a swim in this beautiful waterfall.

I have sent answers to CO
TFTEC

Logged it

TFTC

We thought we'd escape the heat today and have a look around Killen Falls - and of course solve the earth cache there. A brilliant place but we just didn't escape the heat, we ran towards humidity... and beauty!
Thanks for showing us this spot around Ballina which we probably wouldn't have visited without this cache. Of course the answers have been sent to the owner.

TFTC

Found with Hoojar and Juno.

Thanks.

In all of my years of coming to Byron, I had never been here before. I'm glad that this Earthcache changed that. After gathering our answers we went for a nice long swim, and a relaxing waterfall massage.

Cheers

Today was a warm dry day in the northern rivers, so KTB and I decided a visit to one of the many local waterfalls was in order to cool down. Having never been to Killen Falls (I prefer my swimming holes to be less crowded) the one two punch of a trad and earth cache swayed my thinking so off we went.

We headed on down to the swimming hole for a swim and a couple cold frothies before heading back to the car via the lookout. While exploring (well, mainly while cooling down in the wet stuff) I made sure to take note of the geology in order to answer the questions required. These have been sent off to the cache owner as required.

Many thanks to OrionJ for getting me to finally visit these falls, I enjoyed it more than I thought I would (apart from being slowed down by an entire family walking slowly along the track) and I now feel like I understand the fuss made about this spot. Quite pretty indeed. Cheers, and thanks for the lesson in local geomorphology.

-- This log is trackable ! --
-- Feel free to discover --
-- Please mention, in which cache you've seen this code: --
-- 3TABQX --

Well on a sweltering day, the place was packed with people enjoying a day in the pool.
Enjoyed our time here cooling off before taking the time to answer the questions on this cache. Great location and well worth the visit.
Answer sent to CO.
Thanks for bringing us back here.

Absolutely enjoyed coming to see this hidden gem, plenty of water flowing today, it looked quite magical and it would certainly be a beaut spot to go for a dip on a hot day.
Answers messaged to CO.
Thanks OrionJ for placing this Earthcache, a favorite point from me and TFTC

This is a beautiful spot, another jewel in the crown of NSW. Have nothing like it in SA. Enjoyed this bit of geography and geology, thanks for the hide.

We visited this place with OrionJ when he collected the information to place this Earthcache but it was only on a recent visit to the area that we had a chance to visit and answer the questions.

TFTC

Nice day for a visit to the falls and the nearby dam, and the chance to do an Earth Cache. Seemed to good to be true. definitely have to earn this one as the walk to the bottom of the falls and back is invigorating to say the least. But well worth the effort. I always enjoy earth caches as there is always something new to learn. This one is no exception and earns a favourite from me. TFTEC OrionJ

Magical. Fav from New Zealand

We detoured off the main road down to this spot which was popular. What a great example of some lava flow that just stops! Answers gathered and sent off. TFTEC!

New England Roadtrip day 2: Armidale to Brisbane via Ebor, Nymboida, Grafton, Ballina and Tweed Heads. On the road early for the long trip home across the foggy range and up the coast.

A special stop was made here to visit this EC and it certainly didn't disappoint. It was surprising to see dozens of people wandering around, this area is no longer a secret!

Answers sent to CO. Thanks **OrionJ** for bringing us here, this EC makes #3804. Discover our trackable TGQNRV.

Yet another delightful and interesting place I wouldn't have known about if not for geocaching. I've sent my answers to the cache owner. Thanks for setting this earthcache, OrionJ.

Quick walk from the car park to the falls lookout. Really is a beautiful place

Answers sent.

What a great waterfall and beautiful area! The reason I came to this place was for this Earthcache so thanks for creating

Sorry for the late log.

Spending the Christmas period with family on the FN coast we mixed our caching runs in and around stuffing ourselves with too much food or spending hot days by the pool.

This is an area we have been on a number of occasions. Today I was surprised to see the lower falls section being used for some professional photos.

After collecting all the info it was tempting to have a swim but there was more places to visit.
Answers sent to CO

TFTC

Very interesting geology, so we did the questions and thanks for response.
Nothing quite like the tropics for full-on greenity.
TFTC

Visited this wonderful spot with MummyPenny today and climbed all over it, high and low. Just a placeholder for the moment until our answers are accepted.