The Bethungra Spiral Virtual Reward 3.0 Bethungra, New South Wales, Australia
By Darzee Di on 02-Apr-22. Waypoint GC9P70T

The rain was heavy as we ventured up the track with our caravan to view the spiral.We were rewarded with a goods diesel emerging from the tunnel. Good timing.Answers sent and a F.P.TFTC.

What a cool spot! We really enjoyed the detour to visit the waypoints and read up on the history of this location. Have driven straight by in the past so it was excellent to make a stop here today. Thanks!

Day 14 of my interstate trip. Today I left Oura and continued to head closer to Sydney but only got as far as Grenfell where I stay for the night. I managed to find 20 caches today and ended up with 2 DNF's today.A great sopt to vist and I nearly missed turning off glad I didn't.TFTC Darzee Di

What a truly fascinating engineering marvel. Fascinating spot a deserving of a fav. TFTC.

This was quite a remarkable construction. It would have been great to have had a drone and seen what it looked like from directly above. Thanks for bringing us here with the placing of this cache.

Traveling to Bathurst with Team Crackers, Geoturtle37 & Papi4506.This is one we stopped for as we had not been here before. Answers sent to the CO, and required photo taken.Many thanks for placing this virtual, Darzee Di, a favourite point given.

I was targeting virtuals to get my count up to 100, only have 9 to go. Answers sent, logging with approval. Nice location at the lookout. fav point. Also got the nearby 2003 trad while we were here. Found with Mogni. Myself and mogni are headed off to canberra on the " I missed the Capital GeoBash Mega " holiday, since last minute family problems came in to play and we had to adjust our plans by a few weeks. On the way over we targeted multi's, wherigo's and puzzles to make sure we had 25 in each or at least close to that total ( or more ) as possible, getting as many new New South Wales LGA's as possible, the 17th most favourite point NSW cache and every cache size in New South Wales.In the ACT it was getting 2 of the 5 oldest letterboxes, oldest wherigo in Australia, 2nd oldest earthcache ( with a side trip to get the oldest earthcache of course ), and ACT oldest cache too. I also hosted a CITO and planned on getting every different cache type i could and eevry different cache size as well. I also needed 9 more virtuals this trip to get my virtual count over 100. Finally canberra was far enough away from from house to complete the well aged well travelled cacher 0 to 1000 kms with a cache every 10 km's ( i only need 7 more caches to complete )Leaving the ACT it was going via Victoria to get there last active web cam cache and slowly getting a total of 20 finds in each LGA i passed through if i had enough time plus also hosting a CITO in Victoria as well. A busy 11 days. Trust me by the end of the holiday you would have thought the 6 meter ladder weighed more than 13 kg's to amount of times it was used or carried up hills or over creeks. If your cache was found with a broken container/lid it was replaced or if the log was full it was replaced or a extra log if the container was big enough ( except for nano's, do your own maintenance on nano's.

Day 2 of mogni and sir_spectre visit the ACT. Today was a much more relaxing day, only travelled from Wagga Wagga Yass. We found abut 40 caches and 16 ad labs. Today we targetted some caches to help with challenges and high D and/or T. Lots of cache guardians were seen, the bulls made me the most nervous. Any caches that needed some attention got it.Thanks to Darzee Di from mogni

01/04/2024 12:41:00 PMMy first find of the day as I headed back to Victoria after the Mega and spending last night in Young after dropping of scouter 101.Thanks Darzee Di for contributing to the game I so enjoyFind recorded using GCDroid and logged using GSAK

Find 472 on 1 April 2024Found on our way to Wagga. Answers sent to the CO.TFTC Darzee Di

Find 5086 on April 1, 2024Found on our way home from the Capital Geobash. Today we traveled from Canberra to Wagga Wagga. A cool piece of engineering. Photo attached. TFTC Darzee Di

We're camping at Bethungra Dam for a few days and today we decided to check out the Bethungra Spiral. I spent some time investigating the rail timetable from Junee so we could watch the train traveling around the visible sections of the spiral but when we arrived, I discovered the train had been delayed. We hung around for a bit but the delay just seemed to get longer and longer so we headed back to camp where we kept an eye on the timetable. Once we saw online that the train had departed from Junee, we headed over to the lookout. While we waited, an echidna ambled by keeping us pleasantly entertained. Then, about half an hour after it departed from Junee, the train came out of the tunnel. We snapped a few shots and then, about two minutes later, it was back again traveling along the track across the top of the tunnel.Answers sent.Thanks for find #5790TNLN

What an excellent idea for a virtual! I have never been here before, not even the old traditional nearby has been found! So awesome idea to highlight this spot with a virtual as well, as I didn't know about the history and odd spiralling track here! We started at the posted coordinates and answered the question, before moving up to the lookout for the rest of the info. Everything has been sent off to the CO for myself and menzolup who was with me! Pic attachedThanks Darzee Di, have a favourite from me for something different!

Found with my niece from Burdons5 on our roadtrip from Brisbane to Canberra. A very cool stop and also stortigirls 6000th cache thanks for bringing us here to this interesting place and tftc!

Reperio 12:05Grabbed the youngest for a drive down to Victoria for 3 days, and were headed to Nathalia for the night. We took a slightly different route to the usual mostly to visit this virtual cache. Fantastic location. We both loved the history here, as well as seeing the cutting through to the tunnel. Great spot for virtual. Thanks for bringing us here.Gratias Darzee DiAs a well spent day brings happy sleep, a well spent life brings happy death - LDV

It was time for the traditional post Christmas road trip. The stockings were emptied of presents, feasts were devoured and great times were had with family and friends. Now to get away!Day 15:After another swim in the mineral pools it was off further south towards Wagga Wagga, making a few stops along the way.What a great spot for a virtual! A very unique and interesting place. Shame there was no train passing! Have a favourite for the location!Thanks Darzee Di for adding this cache to the worldwide collection for us all to enjoy. ----------------------------------------------------------The Ballarat GeoTour ends on 4 March 2024! Be sure to find all the caches and earn the souvenir before the tour is archived. The [Farewell Ballarat GeoTour Event - GCAFQ8B](https://coord.info/GCAFQ8B) is on 18 February 2024.Looking for caches to find when visiting Victoria? Why not check out the geocaching lists available on the [Geocaching Victoria Website](https://geocachingvictoria.com.au/information/great-caching-lists/). There are plenty to choose from including all of the previous nominees and winners of the Victorian Cache of the Year Awards.

A loose plan was hatched for a 3-week road trip with RoamingHowie to explore locations in Country NSW wed not been to before and of course, find a cache here and there.DAY FIFTEEN: Crossing back through Temora, this time towards Cootamundra, then Bethungra, Junee and Wagga Wagga. Id been here once before and was pleased to be able to return today to check out this virtual. Thanks for bringing us here by placing this cache, Darzee Di ~ ~

Out and about with My Chauffer for a drive around the area. He loves these types of places to stop and check out. They have done so much work here over the years and it is so much easier to see the trains coming around trough the tunnel now. There were none while we were there this time but has been in the past. It is a work of art and would have been a lot of hard work in its day.Thanks for this great cache Darzee DiLilDonna . . .

Thanks for this Cache. Answers sent to CO. GJ

Found on a fine warm Spring day for a drive with MrsRoosta. It's been a while since we first came to this spot.And the new lookout is a big improvement. FP added. Thanks for the cache Darzee Di, ***Roostaman***

Found on a fine warm Spring day for a drive with Roostaman. A very nice lookout and a good view down below. FP added.Thanks for the cache Darzee Di,***MrsRoosta***

Worth the diversion. I remember as a 10 year old, travelling on the train and a big deal being made about passing through this loop..

Another of those places I would never have known about, but for geocaching ... but then, there wasn't a signpost on the main road back in the days when I regularly drove up and down the Olympic Way.Thanks for bringing me to this very interesting engineering work. Answers to follow.

A really cool spot for a virtual, and a surprising number of people visiting as well.Answers sent to CO and pic attached. A favourite from me!

This was a nice opportunity to revisit the area here. Located the required information and emailed CO with answers. It would be great to see a goods train traveling the spiral track, thanks.

Love this virtual great history and engineering on the spiral. Gathered info required sent to Co.

This was a great piece of history, well worth a detour from the road south.
A fav from me.
Answers sent and pic below
Thanks Darzee Di

Detoured to view this interesting piece of industrial history on our way South. Answers sent.
Thanks Darzee Di.

Having a awesome time running around the countryside. Answers sent to CO.

1st day of our Mildura Madness run. Really looking forward to getting away.

Thanks for getting me out and about

Found on a trip to Mildura with Joolay and the gang. What an interesting location - it would be cool to see a train go by. Answers sent to the CO. Thanks for the hide Darzee Di

Day one on our short trip north to find some better weather. BettyBoo3747, the geodoggies and I are heading to Cowra and back. Tonight we have made it as far as Cootamundra.

You are certainly correct in saying you would not know it was there from the signage.
Thanks for placing this Virtual to highlight the tracks.
We were impressed with the bridge at WP1, but spent a lot longer at the lookout and information board.
Photo attached, and answers are in the mail (so BB says!)
Thanks, Robmc.

#20934. Day 1 of a short holiday over the border in NSW with Robmc and the geodoggies. We had a pleasant journey gathering caches along the way before arriving in Cootamundra for the niight. Enjoyed the sunshine and the scenery once the fog lifted.

What an amazing spot this is and even with the huge information board and the photos it is hard to get my head around it. Would have loved to see a train emerge from the tunnel and do a loop but alas we did not.

Answers sent this evening. Favourite point awarded.

Thanks Darzee Di

A great location for a virtual answers sent by The Booos

Find number 9208

Loved the area and it is defiantly one reason we love caching finding these places we would never otherwise visited.

Thanks Darzee Di for placing this cache

Hello Darzee Di thank you for the cache

Ended up at a lovely and interesting location.

This was one of many caches found on our way to Newcastle to see our grand children.

Found on Wednesday, 10 May 2023 at 1235

**TFTC**

We had been touring this lovely area and detoured to this very interesting location. We enjoyed learning about this feat of engineering. TFTVC Darzee Di

This cache was found today and brings our overall cache find tally to 12414.

Broke up the long drive home with this one today and enjoyed seeing the spiral, something I’d heard a lot about from older engine drivers.

Thanks Darzee Di for the cache.

Started my journey to the mega in Rutherglen. With stops in moss Vale, Yass and Wagga Wagga most Kilometers are done today. A chilly start of the day, but weather is good.
TFTC Wilbert67

Very interesting place, whoa, TFTC it was very interesting to read about it. Fav point from me

Really interesting spot I'd not have visited without geocaching
Thanks for maintaining the cache

#12198 13:51
Together with my son, I am on a camping trip from Sydney to Broken Hill and back. On our 3000 km journey over 11 days we have seen some wonderful little towns, beautiful landscapes and many interesting geocaches.

Driving from Narrendera to Junee and onward to Cowra we stopped at a few caches to stretch the legs. What an interesting spot. Unfortunately no train passed by so we could see the spiral in action.

TFTC.

Out and about caching around , while travelling down to Rutherglen VIC. Stopped by to do this Virtual Cache. What a great spot. Giving a FP for bringing me to this location. Answers sent to CO. TFTVC Darzee Di

Answers sent to CO.
Making our way to Rutherglen and just had to stop for an interesting virtual. Have seen a few and I think there is one near Kyogle in northern NSW.
Great view and informative boards but no train came while we were there.

[THIS IS A 'WRITE NOTE' TO KEEP MY LOG/FIND ORDER ACCURATE. I PLAN TO SEND/UPLOAD THE REQUIRED INFORMATION AS SOON AS POSSIBLE AFTER TYPING MY FOUND LOGS. PLEASE DO NOT DELETE THIS LOG.]

Strategically spent the weekend finding caches that were part of my initial Rutherglen Mega plan. Glad to knock out hundreds of kilometres; exploring small towns and finding caches along the way. Thanks to all Caches Owners for their hides.

I made a trip out here for the old school traditional cache a few years ago. Today, I returned to the Bethungra Rail Spiral viewing platform for this Virtual. TFTV!

I was out this way finding the newer GCA caches and while I was nearby, I decided on finding this cache as well. I have been here before finding the historic traditional cache. Back then however, the viewing platform and information board wasn't there. It was nice to read some more of the history about it. I quickly found the answers and took the required photo for logging. Thanks for bringing me back here for another visit to this great location. Answers sent to the CO on 15/3. TFTC and FP given.

Teamed up with AngelG27 and TikvaNZ for a day trip to Wagga Wagga to get some numbers up! What a roasting hot day but luckily AngelG27's car has AMAZING air-conditioning! Logs signed as SAT to save time/space.

Very cool spot here and it was interesting to know how the rail spiral works for the trains! We heard the 'toot!" of a southbound train and saw it pass by!. Answers sent to CO for us by AngelG27.

Thanks for the cool Virtual, Darzee Di

Cache 9705 on 11 Feb 2023.

On a day trip to Wagga with SpecimenX and TikvaNZ to boost our numbers before the Rutherglen mega event. A lovely day to be out and about and away from the home office! Signed as SAT!

Unless otherwise indicated, this cache was found easily and in hint with any hints.

Answers sent and photo attached! An interesting piece of engineering and history!

Thanks Darzee Di for the cache and the fun!

#19522 @1020
A geo mission to Wagga Wagga and back with AngelG27 and SpecimenX to boost find numbers. A cool spot. A southbound train went past as we were here. TFTC.

Headed out to Temora today with fitzy_1965 & albida33.

When Johno mentioned he had a couple of events on today, we knew where we had to be.

We left early and picked up albida at Yass. Got to the CITO a little after start time. Still managed to collect half a bag and salvaged a box that had literally fallen off the back of a truck.

After the CITO we headed out further afield with The Drovers & sebass19.

Soon it was time to head back into Temora for lunch then more caching as we worked our way back home.

Had to stop here to see the spiral. Information gathered and sent to the CO. Logging with permission.

29,762. Found with minniek and albida33 During our Australia Day Temora visit.

The two events in the Temora region today were enough to tempt us for a day trip to the area for a clean up run. A 6:30 departure had us arriving at the CITO around 9:40 and we joined in the clean up crew. Enjoyed chatting to everyone about all things Geocaching. After an adventure at a tree cache and a few more caches, we attended the lunchtime event which was a fun time. We soon headed off for more caches. This was the next one, and what a neat and interesting virtual this is. I've been here before, but the lookout is new. Answers being sent to the CO.

Thanks Darzee Di !! Favourite Point !

For the first Public Holiday of 2023, I decided at the last moment to join a journey to the Temora events with Fitzy_1965 & MinnieK. We planned a long sheet of caches to be done and managed all the remote ones beyond Temora and down to Junee, but by the time we were back to Cootamundra, the day was mostly behind us and we had been in the sun long enough to just head back to Yass where my car was waiting. We had a great day and the lunch provided was great !

My last cache for the day was at this spiral. I did the old cache here in my first year of caching in 2006 and have been back a few times now. I think the lookout has been built since my last visit, but that did not cause a train to come past. Oh well. Answers sent.

Thanks for the cache Darzee Di

40056.14 TNLN
Visited: World Traveling Gold GC A#6 & 2016 Surf Coast Event LE A#353

**Albida**

Our first virtual geocache. Thanks for a fun adventure.

Second time here this month. The first time I didn't read the conditions and only came away with a photo. Today I did what was required. TFTC

Slowly headed towards Dubbo in the stinking heat, I saw there was a lookout here. I'd heard all about this section of line from a local quite a number of years ago. I'd passed it a couple of times but didn't realise you could drive up here. So seeing the lookout, with caravan in tow, I crossed my toes (needed the fingers uncrossed on the steering wheel) and hoped it was RV friendly. It was. Phew!

Standing at the lookout I though, there has to be a cache here! There were 2!! A quick find was made and I was on my way again. My timing was awful because just as I went under the bridge in the way out, a train went over. I missed seeing it do the loop-de-loop! Dang!

Thanks for the virtual. Answers sent.

Approaching 12am & we (The Green Geckos &I) are still caching. Trying to do all our allotted targeted cache prior to arriving in Canberra on the next stage of our journey.
We progressed through the WP’s & found ourselves at the viewing platform over looking the train tunnel.
Attached are 2 photos, one from an Apple & the other from an android . Which is which??????

Muggle65 and l had a huge day of driving and caching. We arrived here at about 11.30pm and had no trouble gathering the required information. The hard part was getting a picture in the dark. Luckily we have a pretty good torch and it managed to light up the tunnel well enough for a clear picture.
Thank you for bringing us to this really interesting spot

I had some time to kill whilst in the Junee / Cootamundra area recently so what better to do than a bit of geocaching? I have driven quite a few trains up the spiral, it's always been one of my favourite parts of the journey from Melbourne to Cootamundra.
I had visited the lookout and traditional cache previously, and being aware of a Northbound freight train in the area around the time I was there, I chose a vantage point on the main road at the bottom of the spiral where I could see the train on the lower and upper levels. Afterwards I completed the requirements of this cache before viewing the Sydney to Melbourne 'XPT' passenger train at the bottom of the spiral.
My thanks to the CO for the cache and another opportunity to stop at this fascinating location. I have uploaded a couple of videos to my youtube channel which show trains at the spiral for anyone that didn't get to see any during their visit.
This one is from the bottom of the spiral, showing a Northbound train snaking around the lower and upper levels of the spiral: [Freight and Passenger Trains at the Bethungra Railway Spiral](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EOFy9lW6jIw "Title")
And this one is taken at the lookout near the top of the spiral [The Bethungra Railway Spiral](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V3cAEAKf6ls "Title")

We have visited here previously for the nearby cache but always good to return, this is an interesting location. Answers collected and have been sent in by GreyHams on behalf of us both.

With the Whittlesea Mega, its GPS maze and a number of events on over the weekend, GreyHams and myself set of for our four-day caching trip. Perhaps one of our trips with not much of a plan but we seemed to fill the days fully and ticked of what we had in mind.

The trip down was one that followed the most sensible route... past lots of virtuals and definitely not the most direct, perfect! With a number of AL's as we passed and a few caches of interest we arrived at Whittlesea in time for the evenings event.

Saturday's forecast wasn't the most favourable for caching but the challenge series at Mt disappointment was of interest, and it's a challenge series after all so what's a little rain! We did get lucky really and a few showers blew through but for the most part it was dry enough. It was a long walk and a huge push, but we made it back to the car, a little broken and sore but it was a great series and worth the suffering! (There was suffering!) The day also saw us through the maze, a few AL's, caches and events.

With the prep of the puzzles prior to the weekend it was a group approach of the solving team, the Whittlesea Canberra Caching Group, logs signed WCCG for the Sunday. So great to head out with this group, a great trail of such variety of caches and locations. The huge storm overnight made it a little tricky with so much extra water about, a few downed trees, wet feet, some walks and a couple of leaches (was that just on me!) Great to collect these caches, or at least most of the ones we could.

It's not a caching trip without collecting new LGA's and we did manage a few extras, into Melbourne and its surrounds, feeling a bit stiff and sore from our huge walk it was a limp about for the rest of the weekend but cache on, we did!

Monday saw us back at the Mega for another event, a chance to finish of the AL's and a few last caches. Our journey home taking us through a few new LGA's, more virtuals, and caches of interest. A great weekend away, we filled all the days to the fullest. Many thanks to the Committee for organising and to all the CO's in the region and as we travelled about for your caches.

Aquilus1 & myself have actually been to this exact spot before to grab the oldie that is here. Its a great spot for a virtual as it will bring a few more people here to what is a really cool site.

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Another road trip adventure with Aquilus1 as we venture off from Canberra to go to the Whittlesea Mega. The major lure of course was the GPS Maze (we have attended 5 of these now!).

We went the longish way on Friday so as to collect virtuals and labs a little further west, its a shame that several of the labs could only be done travelling north..... at least we have WP1 done!

The weather was all a bit crap, with crazy wind, rain and swamps everywhere being a feature of the trip.

A huge day on Saturday of 30,000 steps around the new challenge trail at Mt Disappointment was not disappointing.....but it really hurt! We truly became "Limpy & Gimpy" as we hobbled around the showgrounds & did the maze afterwards. The glory!!!

Lucky for us Sunday was a day with mostly park & grabs in convoy, the result of a huge team effort to solve the WCW GeoArt at Whittlesea. I did venture out of the car to clear roads of fallen trees and even stood under a waterfall to retrieve a cache....the things we do! Have to shout out Albida for daring to take on the crazy steep track in his 4WD and Minniek for crossing the log!

Of course we didn't ignore counties as its always one of our major focuses. We ventured south into Melbourne late on the Sunday to collect several, as well as virtuals. I will never forget just how many mozzies were in the loo with me at the MCG!

Monday was a cleanup day with labs, another event and wherigo in Whittlesea (scroll down to the bottom to read the heavily edited logs! )

On the trip back we went a different route to collect some other counties and cool old caches. Car developed a slow leak which meant us putting air in it every 100-150km's, but it got us home!!

HUGE thank you for all the cache owners, if we signed your cache it was because it had a quality we were really chasing. BIG apologies to all other cache owners, we had SO MANY more we wanted to sign, but of course there just isn't enough time.

Heading home from a weekend of bird banding at Grenfell so decided to take the longer route along the Olympic Highway to collect a few caches.

Been up here before and always an interesting spot. Collected the clues in the way and sent the required answers. Glad a Virtual cache brought me back here.
TFTC Darzee Di

Found It!
I remember visiting this oddity years ago to find the old Alex cache here. Was passing by again today so I stopped to collect the answers for this one. I don't remember the info signs and viewing platform last time, I guess they're new? Nice to read a bit of history about the place.
TFTC

.

Geocaching on a freezing cold Winter’s day,
we called into The Dam and to have a look at the spiral train tracks.
We ended up deciding to stay the night at the Dam
A beautiful day yesterday, clear starry skies at night, but woke up to a -1 degree morning upon checking out our temperature gauge and a Misty foggy morning overlooking the dam - a beaut spot to camp.
Totally amazing to see the spiral train tracks, it’d be awesome to see a train go through

TFTC

Very cleaver. And So is the rail adaptation…

Found on the way home from our Wagga Wagga trip. What an awesome idea for a virtual, this was a location I wouldn't have visited without it. The tunnel looks awesome up close, photos don't do justice! All answers were gathered nice and easy. A bit busy up at the lookout today too. TFTC Darzee Di!

An interesting virtual we had on our to do list on our drive today, a cool location at the final waypoint overlooking the train line

Day 6 of e.gregory1 and I’s trip to NSW for a week away collecting a few caches that we had planned out and the odd ones here and there. Today we made our way from Bowning to Balranald.

Thanks for the cache

I visited this Virtual cache on a week-long caching trip over to NSW and Victoria from Adelaide with gridge98.

Our main targets were the wherigo and challenge cache series’ around the Yass and Goulburn areas, although we also found quite a few other Unknown, multi, letterbox, virtual and traditional caches of interest along the way. We even managed to attend an event at Sutton and did a couple of caches just over the border in the ACT.

The middle of winter around the shortest day was probably not the best time to schedule our trip, particularly as we were camping. But despite a little bit of rain one night and sub-zero temperatures on another, the weather wasn’t too bad, albeit on the cloudy and cool side.

In all we covered about 3,300 km over the week and managed almost 350 finds each.

Thanks Darzee Di for the cache.

On my way to a work meeting somewhat nearby tomorrow morning. Made the detour here to grab the Virtual. I've been here before to find a cache, many years ago.

Cheers

We have been hanging out to do this Virtual ever since we discovered it was along the road we would travel today. Such an interesting concept and engineering feat so the trains could traverse this steep section. Our answers have been sent to the CO and we visited here and took a photo at 3.15pm. #8807 TFTVIRTUAL Darzee Di

Always enjoy a Virtual, but this was a particularly interesting one, and it involved trains! We were completely unaware of this railway loop, so enjoyed finding out about it and seeing a range of aspects. An amazing construction feat for the time! Unfortunately we didn't have the opportunity to see any trains traverse it.
Answers sent.

It was time to move on from Wagga, so we said goodbye to good friends and set off on our way to Cootamundra via Bethungra. Its still bitterly cold, but thankfully today there were only a few showers and we managed to dodge most of them.
It was mainly traditionals today although we managed an interesting Virtual and a couple of multis.
All in all a casual day traveling with plenty of stops..

Thank you for your efforts in creating and maintaining the cache Darzee Di.
**SKI Pair****

Just WOW!
I didn't have this one saved to my offline list but took a heap of photos at the posted coordinates regardless.
Next stop was the old trad up the road and viola! Mobile service.
Caches downloaded. Waypoints visited. Info gathered.
*(Answers sent)*
Thank you Darzee Di.

Found with O319. Thanks for bringing us here.

Great virtual. TFTC

A really interesting detour to the lookout. I never would have stopped here otherwise.

TFTC.

Published

Love the new viewing platform, although I am a bit of a chicken when it comes to heights....